Awesome feedback from a dev.
Originally Posted by schleinzer
Thanks so much for replying in such detail to myself and others.
Regarding the wishlist:
Good news on the random option, it will be great value once leagues and cups are introduced as well as it will provide better variety.
Leagues & Cups
Overhead kicks - Cool, thanks. No hurry as I appreciate there are other things to work on 1st.
Referees - I'm glad you are thinking of adding them as well as linesmen, and its great you like the idea of different referees as well. Again, once introduced with random referees in competitions it will add to the variety.
2 Player Co-Op
DLC - I have to say, for me DLC falls in to 2 categories:
Category 1: Unlock an added feature - This is the sort of feature you would adopt I guess, where you add content which can be purchased for a one time fee. I have no problem with this sort of extra, as long as it is priced correctly.
Keep in mind, you already have a user base who has paid for the app as it is. If you did not add to it we could not complain, however if you add extra content we can not expect to get all these updates for free.
I personally consider your game a bargain at $4. I remember paying 45 pounds for sensible soccer on the SNES so come on! Albeit Sensi had more content, but i'm sure you will bridge that gap with the extras you plan to add.
With that in mind, if you were to add competitions with a novelty addon like referees for $1 or $2 then release another DLC with online play and overhead kicks for another $1 or $2, then for less than 10 bux we would have a game a lot of sensi / kickoff fans have been dreaming about for years.
(I just want to point out i'm not trying to tell you how to sell it, it's just me thinking out loud)
Back to the other type of DLC
Category 2 DLC: Where games charge for extra plays or extra coins - I tend not to even try these games as I don't believe it is a fair way to sell games. You can rack up an endless bill on games like these and therefore if the DLC is offered in this format I stay clear.
DLC has a place, and it is a one off, fairly priced charge for the content on offer.
Not an endless bill depending on how often you want to play or how many power ups you want to buy.
Sorry to get off topic but that is my view of DLC.
If you spent the next 2 months throwing extra content in to your already great game, why shouldn't you be allowed to charge an extra couple of bux for it. In my view it would still be a bargain.
I have paid way more money for games that I will play way less than Natural Soccer
Looking forward to anything you choose to add in the future.
Last edited by Gazdaman; 07-17-2013 at 07:08 PM.
Nice job supporting non-ouya controllers! I've added your game to the controller compatibility list! http://ouyaforum.com/showthread.php?...OX-Controllers
Thank you very much for your valuable feedback and the insight about how you think about DLC! Highly appreciated!
Originally Posted by Gazdaman
Yes, I think you are right, and I should tell the "gamer in me" to also make the distinction between DLC that one pays once to add to the game and the "money sink" DLCs for "consuable" items mostly are.
(I am, by the way, totally aware that exactly those "money sinks" have great potential to make devs rich - but that's just not my kind of way of dealing with my customers...)
So, yes, now I'm really considering adding some of the new features such as the league mode or team editor as DLCs - but I will keep them priced very reasonable.
I just played the new update. I'll give my 2cents about the DLC issue after I give you feedback on the current version:
The game is WAY better than I first tried it! I love the new keepers, they made the game a whole lot more enjoyable. I find odd that they bounce the ball backwards INSIDE their own goal a lot. Maybe I just got unlucky, but in 3 demo matches I played (All ended with 2-1 score, lol), I saw this happening 4 times. I don't think this sould be removed, but it should happen a lot less. Bounce the ball backwards but ABOVE the goal or sideways is fine, but inside its own goal isn't something that happens *a lot* in real matches.
Also, it seems the rebound is always at the same strenght. I dunno if there's any calculation going with the rebound or you is just random (I'm ok with that), but maybe you could make the ball bounce at variable speeds.
I seem to understand now what I found weird about passing in the past: the passing is too damn accurate! Now that I have better understanding how the game works, my team pass the ball around better than the real life Barcelona! I don't know how to fix that, or even if it should be fixed or not (I should try it against a human and see how it feels), but that's what I found weird about before and couldn't get exactly my finger on what it was.
About the AI: it's still annoying how its impossible to dribble it (But my Barcelona-skill passing is good enough to beat it ), and I think the problem is how the AI just rushes at your player with pin-point accuracy. As soon as you have the ball, the CPU player will rush at you, and even if you try switching directions, they will always be 100% accurate to where you're going. And because they move faster than you (as they are not carrying the ball - that's ok too), it's basically impossible to avoid it. I think you should consider doing 2 things with the AI:
a) Add a delay (it could be random or even not happen sometimes, mainly when you are closer to their goal) between the human player receiving the ball and the CPU begin charging it. This also would make pass the ball from your goalie to another teammate a lot less risky.
b) Whenever human switch directions, the CPU should take a while to adjust for it (Again, this could be a random delay, and sometimes not even happen at all)
I guess if you could add those 2 features in the AI, it would make it a lot more realistic and interesting (Though also easier, and this could be an issue)
Now, about the DLC...
I came here with the intention to write this:
"You know I said earlier I didn't like your game that much. But now I do like it a lot more and if you could add some way to organize Leagues, Cups and edit my own teams, you'd have my US$4.99 instantly"
But if you add this as DLCs, and I have to buy the game *then* buy the DLCs, I'd probably give a second thought before buying it.
There are some extra content I could understand being DLC, like extra pitches or different balls. but Leagues and Cups, IMO, should be integral part of the main game.
Also, a few suggestions.. I'd imagine you may already be planning to add most of this stuff, but I'll say it anyway
Add a practice feature, where you can practice corner kicks, free kicks, etc.
Different stats for different players (And make possible to be able to change this with the editor). Stuff like max speed, ball control (It could affect how far the player kicks the ball while running), shot power, etc. I don't know how easy is for you to implement this, but since you are having individual player charateristics, and I'd guess all this stuff is already stored in variables, my guess would be "Not hard, just a lot ofextra work" You could also make players tire while playing, and so their stats would decay because of that
Reserve players and substitutions. This would be a must if you actually added stamina
Formation changes. This I'd guess would be a pain to implement.
None of those suggestions are mandatory IMO to make the game enjoyable to me, they just would make the game sweeter
Wow, thanks a lot for this elaborate feedback! Highly appreciated!
I am glad you find Natural Soccer to be always improving, as that is exactly what I am trying to do!
Yes, sometimes keepers do let the ball bounce into the goal even if it would have gone close by. What surprises me is that it happened so often on you - will look into that.
There is some calculation going on with the rebound with some randomness added to it. Maybe I could increase that a bit.
As for the exact passes: yes this is something rather elementary to the game - and also very debatable.
It's the same with individual player skills you suggest later on. You are right, the game code already is very prepared for those but I did not yet decide whether to activate it or, more precisely, in which form. The thing is, it is *very* important to me that Natural Soccer plays as fun as possible with at least frustration as possible. But adding individual player skills (or inexact passes for that matter) would add kind of randomness to the human player's actions. That is, if you are close to the goal, and aimed a perfect shot, the individual player's shooting skill may be poor. So the game would add some randomness to your perfectly aimed shot, making it going far off the goal instead being the smash into the net you were aiming for. Although this is kind of realistic it also has some potential to be rather frustrating... And today's PES/FIFA do it and I am not sure I like it.
You definitely should try a multiplayer match as this offers exactly that: two (or more) human player's with an individual skill set which (+ some luck) decide the matches! And the dribbling is also far more "natural" in those matches, I admit...
I am already testing with individual player skills and just like the feel to the game better without. Having that said, I most likely will add individual player skills but will make them optional - just needs more finetuning/time.
Thanks for your great ideas about making the AI more human. Will try them out. Actually I already added a bit of a delay already in latest versions: CPU players are not able to pass on the ball right when they receive it but have to wait a little bit. Already made the game feel a bit more realistic. But I will try out the "delay after (huge) change in human's motion"-thing - maybe it works out nicely. You already mentioned a real problem yourself: My experiments with making the AI more "human" also weakened it and made it (too) predictable, hence too easy. So it's rather difficult to find the perfect balance. But I am constantly working on it and am really grateful for your ideas! Thanks!
I totally agree with you: Leagues and Cups are essential and just not there yet because implementing them takes (a lot of) time. They definitely will come as non-dlc (although most probably unavailable in unpaid "free to try" mode). Not sure about the editing feature, though...
There already are 3 extra pitches available in full version, so no dlc there either. You see I am carefully considering what has to be an integral part of the game and what could be dlc. Thanks for you thoughts on this dainty issue!
Thought about "practice mode" already but set it to low prio and shifted it again and again :-}
For the different skills, please see above.
Substitutions/Stamina and formations : on my list but low prio.
Thank you VERY much for your feedback! It really delights me, how people like you take so much time to support me and my game with their great feedback - awesome! Thanks again!
After playing the game some more vs a friend and after the updates, I have to give some new feedback.
This game just got a whole lot better!
Love the new AI. Makes the game vs computer much more enjoyable. especially how the AI tends to block my passes with slidings and they give me time to do some dribbling... it's really more realistic.
I have to agree with a previous poster that the passing was too exact. Now (thanks to the delay?) it works better, but it still a bit to easy to pass around because you can hold the passbutton and your players keep passing the ball around.
Goalies are way better!, especially the bouncing-off after a shot.
Team names are great!
Great to see the KO2 pitches in this game (muddy,plastic etc)
I'm missing the "player fall animation" after a tackle. tackles aren't much fun when you don't see a player dropping to the ground.
Still can't get a decent distant shot in the goal. Oppossing players keep blocking my shots in the penaltybox, even when I lifted the ball a bit. a lifted ball should not be easy to block.
Found a "bug" when playing 1vs1: when I got a penalty my opponent tackled a player just outside the penaltybox, when I want to shoot and I got a free kick instead. happened everytime.
Will be back with some more feedback after I play again vs a friend.
Really thanks for all these updates and for listening to us all.
thank you very much for your feedback! Really glad you like the update!
Yes, passing still is very exact. I already tested some "sloppiness" in the CPU passes and I guess I will add it to one of the upcoming updates. One thing to consider is, not to weaken the AI too much with such features...
Glad you like the new Goalie - so do I ;-)
Yes, team/player names added a lot to the game, I think. So I am actively working on "Natural Soccer Editor" - an application to create your own teams and transfer them to the OUYA. Stay tuned!
As for the pitches: yes they are another "shameless inspiration" from KO2. Which one do you like best? Do you have ideas for additional ones?
Yes, the "falling animation" is missing. Mostly just because it tends to be "overvoted" by more important things (leagues, cups, ...) and also because I really have a hard time creating those graphics - being a developer, not a graphics artist :-)
Dinstant shots are very hard to score, yes. Still finding a way to improve them w/o making it too easy to score... But I will consider your idea about making the blocking less likely if the ball is airborne, thanks! Will look into it!
About the penalty bug: :-) Neat idea - and actually very well reproducible. Will fix this with the next update, by letting the ref play the advantage in such a case! Thanks for pointing it out!
THANKS A LOT FOR YOUR GREAT AND VALUABLE FEEDBACK!
This game could be the ultimate ouya game if it had online multiplayer. Its like haxball advanced
Any chance of doing diving headers when the ball is in the air, sensi style?
if I buy it now, do I get the later updates for free?
thanks, enjoying the game!
thanks for your feedback!
Yes, diving headers are on my TODO list for quite a while now. Technically they are rather simple but as I am not a very good artist, drawing the animation frames takes quite some time still :-)
So far each customer got all the updates for free and I don't currently have any plans to change this. There *might* be some paid DLCs (not sure yet) and there *might* be a "Natural Soccer 2" someday with major new features which won't come as a free update. Having said that, they are no definite plans about this and in the meantime all the updates remain free for existing customers, yes.
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