Anti Piracy...Just a wee bit Too Far!

[LightyKD]

Look, I get that this forum doesn't want to promote piracy but infractions for helping someone legally play a game through slightly shady means is quite frankly BS. Let's face facts, Android side loading is not easy on OUYA nor is it one to one. Sometimes you need hacks and mods, sometimes you need to find files in shady areas. I can see not wanting to share APK files or links to pirated materials, I'm fine with that but outright banning talks of piracy, especially when we are talking about it in regards to a legal purchase is a bit much. Piracy is a gray area but its a part of life and nothing in life is black and white. Contrary to popular belief, there are many of us pirates who do have something of a code or limit to our piracy. Hell, if we're going to ban piracy, we might as well block emulation. Seriously, raise your hand here ppl if you are actually playing with ripped Roms and isos and not some you found on a site ...See what I mean? I've said enough for now. People can be pretentious and act like they are high and mighty, above piracy but I refuse to act that way.

[Killswitch]

Probably best for you to discuss the matter with the staff member instead. But you just said "shady means" so that kind of puts your argument in a bad light already.

Think about this. You are on a forum full of developers and I believe you have plans to develop too. Now how would you feel if people were talking about piracy on the console/system that contains your game? OUYA doesn't like piracy, the developers don't like piracy, the forum is anti piracy also, it's been known from the beginning. The rules of the forum for the most part follow the guidelines of OUYA and their content plus the usual rules to keep things orderly.

The act of piracy is not a gray area, it's black and white. Now there may be things that can be seen as gray area but the actual act of piracy itself isn't gray. 10% or 100% piracy is still piracy. No one is asking you to act any way but there is an absolute rule in place. But that is something that can be debated until the end of time.

Contact the staff member or someone and it can be discussed but it's an infraction, it isn't the end of the world.

This is a link I'd like to bring to your attention because it relates to this and it was posted in June. http://ouyaforum.com/showthread.php?...l=1#post135476

[RiotingSpectre]

Look, I get that this forum doesn't want to promote piracy but infractions for helping someone legally play a game through slightly shady means is quite frankly BS. Let's face facts, Android side loading is not easy on OUYA nor is it one to one. Sometimes you need hacks and mods, sometimes you need to find files in shady areas. I can see not wanting to share APK files or links to pirated materials, I'm fine with that but outright banning talks of piracy, especially when we are talking about it in regards to a legal purchase is a bit much. Piracy is a gray area but its a part of life and nothing in life is black and white. Contrary to popular belief, there are many of us pirates who do have something of a code or limit to our piracy. Hell, if we're going to ban piracy, we might as well block emulation. Seriously, raise your hand here ppl if you are actually playing with ripped Roms and isos and not some you found on a site ...See what I mean? I've said enough for now. People can be pretentious and act like they are high and mighty, above piracy but I refuse to act that way.

Probably best for you to discuss the matter with the staff member instead. But you just said "shady means" so that kind of puts your argument in a bad light already.

Think about this. You are on a forum full of developers and I believe you have plans to develop too. Now how would you feel if people were talking about piracy on the console/system that contains your game? OUYA doesn't like piracy, the developers don't like piracy, the forum is anti piracy also, it's been known from the beginning. The rules of the forum for the most part follow the guidelines of OUYA and their content plus the usual rules to keep things orderly.

The act of piracy is not a gray area, it's black and white. Now there may be things that can be seen as gray area but the actual act of piracy itself isn't gray. 10% or 100% piracy is still piracy. No one is asking you to act any way but there is an absolute rule in place. But that is something that can be debated until the end of time.

Contact the staff member or someone and it can be discussed but it's an infraction, it isn't the end of the world.

This is a link I'd like to bring to your attention because it relates to this and it was posted in June. http://ouyaforum.com/showthread.php?...l=1#post135476

I'm going to be responding to both of you so don't get confused.

As Killswitch said we're mimicking the guidelines OUYA Incorporate had set for itself; though heavily altered to adhere to a forum type environment. The company doesn't endorse emulation but at the same time doesn't stop it from coming onto the platform nor makes comments like it doesn't exist. This is because emulation and piracy go hand and hand which means endorsing the former would be interpreted as endorsing the latter which would make the judicial system scream in terror from the amount of lawsuits flooding in. We're a forum that's heavily watched by the company we unofficially represent at this point in time so naturally we're going to be extra strict in what content gets filtered. What you (in particular) did, LightyKD was pretty vanilla piracy that would have been removed even if we weren't who we were.

I reviewed your infraction, the post, and the thread it was in and the infraction stays. In the removed post you said yourself that what you were going to have this member do in order to get a game to work was "partial-piracy". After you said that you gave instructions that weren't "partial" at all as it was piracy, clear as day. As Killswitch said there's no gray coloring when it comes to what's considered piracy and it's all black & white with this clearly being black (i.e. unacceptable).

Furthermore, the point made that everybody is a pirate is shaky. Unless someone specifically states that they've pirated (which happens a lot actually) or doesn't publicly condone in acts of piracy then they're automatically considered someone who hasn't pirated. There are holes to this logic considering that M.A.M.E. exist and people who use that definitely don't have an entire arcade in their house but it's something that we look away on because OUYA Incorporate allowed submission of the M.A.M.E. application to Discover. This unlike my previous point is the gray area Staff & OUYA Incorporate allows to exist on their respective domains. Anything other than that it something we don't allow.

As for this thread's existence; it's fine. It would have been better to private message a different Staff member who had no relation to the incident like myself instead of making a public outburst, but given that it's not a anti-Staff post and instead a website related post means it's not something I can exactly forcefully close to have handled more gracefully. The link Killswitch posted pertains to OUYAlytics and piracy in general so I'd recommend everybody brush up on it because more infractions will follow if you embrace the existence of piracy on here.

[sconfig]

I'm not quite sure where this explosion came from. But I was always under the general impression that everyone knows about the piracy that goes on and the reason why you don't link to various sites to get binaries is due to how google site tracking works where if you start pointing to sites that endorse piracy then by default you are a pirate and are subject of getting the entire forum blacklisted. I'm just a random viewer on the forum and not a moderator but it appears that this forum is playing a balancing game between being here for the users while being the official forum for ouya.tv . This means that they have to play a hard stance against piracy or else developers would simply walk away. Due to the actions of what Ouya has done in terms of endorsing emulation does lead to a problem that by helping a user to get their emulator working you are in fact being a conduit of piracy. A lot of the emulators require BIOS files in order for them to work properly which is still the property of their respective owners.

A lot of the forums during the early days of Xbox homebrew would simply mention a name of a file and tell you to find it on "the usual places" indicating if you typed said name into google then you'd find out. Was it hard? more annoying then hard as anyone caught with a XBE file on their website gets a nasty cease and desist from Microsoft! EDIT: I later found out that even mentioning a filename is against the forums rules. Thus, you can't even help people find the file they need. Wow..

But as you go through the motions you start to understand how your console worked, how the directory structure was laid out and how to place files in the right places to make it all come together. In fact if it wasn't for sites like that I probably would have lost a few xbox's to harddrive death as the very nature of finding the key and pairing a new harddrive had legal issues. I guess the point is. Maybe it was never supposed to be easy? Maybe it was intentionally difficult so that as a user you learn about how your console worked so you in fact become a better user. And as you learn you then understand how to push said console to its limits further and further.

I'd like to think it's okay to talk about history and theory of piracy, even get into morality issues if you so desire. But the point where it goes too far is say "oh hey bro! here's a APK right here! go nuts" is probably the breaking point.

[undeadbobop]

The problem I see is not piracy just how far developers and people go to abuse one another. The system claimed to be open and free, free has a lot of meanings just compare two different mindsets such as Microsoft and FSF. One free means without cost financially, the other means free from. I really wouldn't throw everyone on this site under anti-piracy or pro-piracy as piracy in itself is hard to actually prove. For instance I own doomgles on googleplay, if I root my device and install it on m ouya the developer could see that as "piracy" not saying that one does but others have tried to say that is piracy in the past tors people who pirated different versions of the same game. The problem is many developers DO go way too far with the anti-piracy, it hurts their consumers and they don't care that it does. It's both easy and hard to have and implement DRM. For the Ouya it is very easy to get caught up in trying to make something out of your work, and inorder to do so there has to be DRM of some kind, unless you setup your own sideloaded system I don't see how unless you got in at the humble store or something. Either way the user has to deal with DRM though as the system itself has restrictions.

I really hate when I purchased a game on my ouya and because I take it over a friends house or somewhere without internet I have to play the demo version. This is a problem with most games on ouya I purchased. That is DRM gone wrong. I really hate the mentality that some developers have that their customers don't own the game they purchased with the intent of ownership and they feel software is the only thing that software/games should be allowed with, where the consumer owns nothing that they paid for there for has no rights what so ever.

[LightyKD]

I'm still sticking to my guns here and saying that a zero tolerance policy is a bit silly.I can see if we were passing APK files around but we are not. The number of games that work on OUYA yet are blacklisted alone is where I'm frustrated from all angles. It's not like I'm saying, hey, just go download the game without buying a license. I'm saying "Hey, buy the license from the online version of Google Play or Amazon and then go find the files so you can install". I dont see where the developer is losing any money at all in this case. Hell, ALL android stores would be better off allowing users to install apps to their devices with a warning on "non-compatible" devices so that gamers can make their own decisions. Locking games to certain pieces of hardware is just like developers saying, nope, I dont want that person's money.

BTW for people saying, "How would you feel, Lighty? You're a dev." I accept a logical amount of piracy on anything I make. I also accept the fact that unless a game I make is platform exclusive and not OS exclusive, there is NO excuse to locking a game to one device. If you're a OUYA or KINDLE game, it's obvious that your game is made specifically for ONE device but if you're a general Android game, sorry, no excuses. I will legally buy your game and then find the peoper files to install MY purchase onto my OUYA. You still received your money, you didn't lose a sale. I refuse to pay for more hardware just to play one game. The same goes for my statement on "The Other Brothers". At the time of statement, there was no indication of a OUYA or general Android release. All factors was pointing to Game Stick exclusivity. You honestly think I'm going to buy a Game Stick for ONE game??? FAce is, I'm not the only person who thinks this way and I'm tired of people online acting holier than thou because they want to show loyalties to companies that could give two spits about them.

I'm not saying that all developers are evil. Hell, 98% of my purchases for my OUYA have been legit with the 2% being games that I have paid for but had to find additional files to install on my OUYA. I just wont sit back and stand for over priced games (in which it's not a problem for OUYA but a MAJOR one on the Wii U's eshop) and games that are locked to one device for reasons that are not logical.

[RiotingSpectre]

I'm still sticking to my guns here and saying that a zero tolerance policy is a bit silly.I can see if we were passing APK files around but we are not. The number of games that work on OUYA yet are blacklisted alone is where I'm frustrated from all angles. It's not like I'm saying, hey, just go download the game without buying a license. I'm saying "Hey, buy the license from the online version of Google Play or Amazon and then go find the files so you can install". I dont see where the developer is losing any money at all in this case. Hell, ALL android stores would be better off allowing users to install apps to their devices with a warning on "non-compatible" devices so that gamers can make their own decisions. Locking games to certain pieces of hardware is just like developers saying, nope, I dont want that person's money.

BTW for people saying, "How would you feel, Lighty? You're a dev." I accept a logical amount of piracy on anything I make. I also accept the fact that unless a game I make is platform exclusive and not OS exclusive, there is NO excuse to locking a game to one device. If you're a OUYA or KINDLE game, it's obvious that your game is made specifically for ONE device but if you're a general Android game, sorry, no excuses. I will legally buy your game and then find the peoper files to install MY purchase onto my OUYA. You still received your money, you didn't lose a sale. I refuse to pay for more hardware just to play one game. The same goes for my statement on "The Other Brothers". At the time of statement, there was no indication of a OUYA or general Android release. All factors was pointing to Game Stick exclusivity. You honestly think I'm going to buy a Game Stick for ONE game??? FAce is, I'm not the only person who thinks this way and I'm tired of people online acting holier than thou because they want to show loyalties to companies that could give two spits about them.

I'm not saying that all developers are evil. Hell, 98% of my purchases for my OUYA have been legit with the 2% being games that I have paid for but had to find additional files to install on my OUYA. I just wont sit back and stand for over priced games (in which it's not a problem for OUYA but a MAJOR one on the Wii U's eshop) and games that are locked to one device for reasons that are not logical.

We have a zero tolerance policy towards piracy like most websites and we have a leniency policy towards emulators like my M.A.M.E. example above. We know what you're saying and what we're saying is that's still unacceptable. You have your principles but so does anybody else but that doesn't mean all are exactly legal. Morals and ethics are the big thing you're not seeing because you label yourself as acceptable since in the end the developer gets what they ultimately want (to you) which is money. Not only are we trying to protect the wallets of every developer on here; we're also trying to protect their interest and feelings.

While you technically didn't harm the first along with arguing that locking something to a specific platform can harm some of their business oriented interest. The fact of the matter is the feelings aspect of the situation which still fully applies and is still more than enough to go against the brand of piracy that you were involved in. Sorry, but if you choose to continue this train of logic by making more public posts that you were previously infracted for then I'm afraid you'll be filling up with infractions. You're a good member that I enjoy talking to and are devoted to the OUYA cause so I'd like to see this conclusion avoided.

[undeadbobop]

.... why does everything have to be threats.... It clearly is not to protect the interest of every developer as every developer doesn't have the same interests, this should be clear to a forum that specializes in the interest of a single micro-console that has its own interests. You really can't say you are protecting developers interests as we all have our own interests, not everyone is motivated by money, money isn't everything to some people(myself included).I'd rather have people play my game than no one play it at all. Another example: Not all EFF members share all the same interests as all FSF members, just as I don't share the interests in which you are trying to defend.

Your\The rules interest is to protect the site above all others, not the developers, if a site has piracy activity it can be taken down. The zero tolerance policy.... which is why you threaten developers with infractions, for talking about piracy.... Also emulation doesn't nessarly mean piracy... just take a look at the retron5... heck didn't one of the emulators try to do homebrew games on it and promote home brew?

I don't expect rules to change or anything to change. You don't need to threaten to attempt to defuse every situation, just be honest when it comes to discussions like this. Most sites only have rules like that to avoid legal actions themselves. It literally has nothing to do with morals or ethics as those very person to person, it is all legal issue avoiding.

I'm sure if we were talking about restricting our users with anti-piracy measures you wouldn't have a problem with it.

[DrunkPunk]

There is to be no talk of piracy in the open forum. Take it to PMs.

Very simple, no morals or ethics involved. Just keep it in private and use common sense when posting is all we ask.