What's with the lack of interest lately in the Upcoming section.

[Grimbarian]

Stop worrying about Minecraft crap. They have an established product that people know and that people don't question, new developers shouldn't even be looking at that or worrying about that. The console needs all types of games from a selling standpoint, if it sells to no one then there is no OUYA.

As I said, It's not me as a developer looking at the other games - it's me as a developer looking at what the OUYA audience want.

You say the console needs all types of games - yet raise the point in the OP yourself that few are commenting about the 'unknown' games in the Upcoming section. This, to me, says that the console only needs the games that the OUYA players want to buy - which is games from already established developers. You are of course 100% right that there have been a few very notable exceptions.

I'm more than happy to take it on the chin that my game isn't inspiring or noteworthy, and that I've got it wrong with who I perceived the OUYA audience to be. That's just one of those live and learn things. My next game has much more artistic flair... (very, very early stages... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37061220/index.html)

I'm merely saying that these are a couple of reasons why the Upcoming section could be perceived as being quiet.

[flamepanther]

You say the console needs all types of games - yet raise the point in the OP yourself that few are commenting about the 'unknown' games in the Upcoming section. This, to me, says that the console only needs the games that the OUYA players want to buy - which is games from already established developers.

That's a reasonable concern, but keep in mind that in any group it's always the unhappy ones that make the most noise, not necessarily the actual majority.

[Foppy]

I have noticed a trend where people say "please, no more retro games", "please, no more 8-bit graphics". Which is a pity. Other than that... This forum has about 20 active members (or maybe 50). If you ask for people to show interest in a game, the same 10 names will pop up, if they are interested. I would not base my decisions on that. Then again I make only freeware games.

[trashHeap]

Pre-release game hype doesn't seem to work on the same cycle on the Ouya like it does other consoles. Release dates are often not known, a lot of games drop without advanced forewarning. For indie games there often isn't too much known about them except for the release trailer and a handful of screenshots. etc, etc. That makes the hype machine hard to get going on a specific software title in advance of its release. This combined with the relatively narrow focus on that subforum makes it a mixed value. Especially since the moment a game drops, all conversation is supposed to move to current games/apps.

Like I am all about Reagan Gorbachev. I am going to be picking it up the moment it drops, something about that game really calls to me. But im not sure I have anything to say about it in the Upcoming games section, except how im looking forward to it? There never seems to be a lot of news about it except that its coming, and folks at gaming conventions sometimes get to see it.

[Killswitch]

Pre-release game hype doesn't seem to work on the same cycle on the Ouya like it does other consoles. Release dates are often not known, a lot of games drop without advanced forewarning, etc, etc. That makes the hype machine hard to get going on a specific software title in advance of its release. This combined with the relatively narrow focus on that subforum makes it a mixed value. Especially since the moment a game drops, all conversation is supposed to move to current games/apps.

Like I am all about Reagan Gorbachev. I am going to be picking it up the moment it drops, something about that game really calls to me. But im not sure I have anything to say about it in the Upcoming games section, except how im looking forward to it? There never seems to be a lot of news about it except that its coming, and folks at gaming conventions sometimes get to see it.

Another good point. But even something like "I like this game" does help keep people going instead of a blank stare. I always mention the lack of timing and no release dates.

[arcticdog]

It's a lot easier to be excited for games that already exist, indie devs are notorious for abandoning games before completion. However I think you're right in the sense that people could get a bit more pumped about upcoming games, as OUYA needs that kind of enthusiasm if the console is going to make it in the long run.

Yeah.. This is a pretty bad habit that I wish a lot of devs would get out of. Every announcement I see in Upcoming from an unknown I take with a grain of salt.

I've been working on something for awhile, so I don't think it's in danger of abandonment. I've even shared a screen or two with a few people here, and even more insight about it with a few trusted others outside of my family and house. But at this point, I'm not even sure what platforms it'll show up on. I'd like to target OUYA, and my "game engine" (for lack of a better term) anticipates Android-based platforms among others, but it's not aiming squarely at OUYA or even Android specifically at this point. The priority is to get the game closer to done first before making promises and announcements because that's the only time a dev can truly know how feasible it's going to be to port. But boy.. is it hard to refrain from sharing what's going on some days or make a bold promise about where it will end up.

In general, game developers need more discipline. Not only in the creation process, but tempering announcements and hype building until the reality of delivery outpaces the desire, over-confidence and excitement of sharing an idea. Otherwise, a reputation of flakiness and inability to deliver begins to nudge it's way into the reputation. You also only get a very short window of time between the "hype" and "take my money" zone. So timing announcements correctly can be critical to financial success if you're motivated that way.

I think everyone considering getting into indie game development should be required to watch Indie Game: The Movie. Specifically the section about Phil Fish, and make note of the mistakes he made in the process regarding announcing things too early. He endured a lot of excitement that turned into animosity over time. Obviously he didn't suffer financially, but that may have had a lot to do with Microsoft's support.

But to get more on topic, perhaps there's just not a lot of people sharing anything at this point in time? I seem to remember things slowing down here in general around this time last year. And you know.. we're on the heels of Android TV's announcement. So it's the new shiny thing until things even out again.

I was going to leave this thread well alone - but as the developer who asked to be removed from the developer group, I feel compelled to post my reasoning and input onto the OP.

Apologies in advance, there's no real way to make this short...

No apologies necessary. You've undoubtedly seen my posts..hehehe

It's probably best to kick off with my assumption of what the OUYA would be (and - are you ready for this internet - I now believe my assumption was wrong). I saw the OUYA as a console for first time/small developers. I thought it would be a way for those who wanted to try to make a game,to place their efforts in front of 65'000+ (at launch) players who were interested in finding something new. A platform that those with no money - but the right talents - could showcase their work, and possibly earn themselves a little bit of money/exposure from.

I think OUYA is still a fine place to do this. There are plenty of first time/small developers on the platform. But the consumers ultimately choose who gets the most attention. Not everyone gets a trophy. And a first time/small dev can't cut to the front of the line to gain attention or financial success. The ones that do don't act like first time/small in their goals, marketing or delivery.

I also believed (again - I think I was wrong here too) that the community here would be like minded and interested in experiencing new games. Something different from the norm. That, given the chance to do so, the community would get involved and excited about fresh new games from unknown talent and feedback to the developer - during development - to create something original and desirable.

This audience exists on all platforms. But ultimately, a dev needs to have enough confidence in their product to find an audience. Again, not everyone gets a trophy, and not everyone turns cartwheels over the announcement of yet another 8-bit graphic/retro game... Even if they think it's a decent attempt and will ultimately be in that audience. In my professional experience in app development, those who are able to see past the surface of a rough product to see potential are few and far between. In short, there are very few end users out there that understand the concept of a work in progress and alpha/beta. OUYA themselves have suffered at the hands of this too. Admittedly, new devs are at a disadvantage here just because of the lack of experience in knowing how users engage software.

But that doesn't indicate people will be uninterested in the final product. It means they're uninterested in providing free QA to the developer (with some developers even having the audacity to charge for).

At first, there were some great things - No Brakes Valet, Hidden in Plain Sight, Ice Rage - fun, well made, simple games. Some free, some priced nice and low.

The longer the OUYA has been out, the louder the claim for games from already established developers. The OUYA didn't have many of these, and it became clear to me that a lot of OUYA users (dare I say the majority?) were primarily interested in these releases only. Pages and pages of posts for games like TWD and Minecraft, with little love for the new developers. Not only the community here though, through OUYA themselves. Lot of statements about just how many developers they have on board, but little to no exposure for the majority of them or their games, and a heavy focus on developers who had already established themselves. (I understand this from a business point of view)

This still happens.
Devs like Phil Royer, without an elaborate track record in games are seeing all sorts of positive feedback and support from the community and OUYA for Pixelo. How about Duck Game?

These guys have paid their dues in one way or another. What they may lack in experience, they made up for in other ways, such as reaching out and establishing community relationships. As an example, Mr. Royer occasionally participates here, and is a regular on the OUYA dev hangout.

To be fair, I have talked to some developers I'd say have done a pretty good job in their work, and OUYA's dev group has seemingly snubbed them (again, this is one side of the story), so there may be some disadvantage to being an "unknown". But even the knowns started somewhere, and they got known by going out of their way to introduce themselves.

Anyone is welcome to go to their office hours hang out, and I don't think I've ever seen them blatantly ignore anyone who chose to participate. That's probably a good way to get on the radar if that's what one wants. Remember they're a small team too. I'd be curious if they get a lot of emails from completely green newbs. But since they have limited human resources, I'm sure it's a careful, and thankless dance of figuring out who's going to seriously help move the platform forward, and who's just in it for craps and laughs. To keep their jobs relevant, they need to cultivate the ones that will help promote and move OUYA forward.

I have had it pointed out to me, that this isn't a fair reflection. That if I were to put the game on the OUYA Alpha/Beta Discover section, I would receive more feedback and plays than an .apk on here. If I can muster some enthusiasm to do so, I aim to test this at the start of August.

With that said, it does make you ask questions. Is there the audience numbers to play the game? Is there an interest from the OUYA owners to play this game? What are the expectations of the OUYA audience? Is it the same as the audience for a web game? Do OUYA themselves even want the games from developers like me on their console?

Of those 75,000 plays, how much feedback did you get? Does that equate to downloads or say... 7,500 people playing it 10 times?

What seems odd about what you're saying here is.. it seems like there is a desire to have it both ways.. This very niche "give the little guy a shot" platform where people look the other way about quality and certain things they've grown to expect about games, and on the other side, an unfiltered group of distribution to the general populace that gives you 75K downloads/plays. Ideally, that would be awesome, but I'm afraid the world just doesn't spin that way.

I can, of course, only speak for myself - but the constant posts of kickstarters that may or may not come to the OUYA, the lack of feedback/interest in the individuals that are creating for the OUYA, seemingly little interest from OUYA themselves, and my own experience (I'll be the first to admit my game i not unique or graphically impressive), are the reasons I have little to know interest in making something for the OUYA right at this moment.

It would not surprise me if some of the things I've experienced are the reason the Upcoming section of this forum is perceived as quiet.

A lot of what you're doing as an indie dev has to be for yourself. If you're going to be discouraged because you're not getting a lot of positive feedback on a forum that, while small, defines a minority subset of OUYA's actual users, then I'm not sure you're doing that. There is interest in OUYA. But there is also a lot of disdain and hate out there for OUYA. One happens to be louder than the other.

But in the end it depends on what your goals are. If you want to reach the most people possible and don't want to target multiple platforms to do that, it's clearly not a great choice. Steam might be better there. But expect a lot of brutality if you're not doing something unique or graphically impressive. And as I said above, it could turn out that a majority of people are uninterested in being testers for your game, but are interested in enjoying the game when you have a polished release.

I've only seen a handful of kickstarters that are managed appropriately. Too many have used it as a platform to rip people off, even if they had no malicious intention of actually doing that, and that's ultimately going to make it harder for the legitimate ones. But that's not something exclusive to OUYA software. It's everywhere. Maybe that's correlative to financial irresponsibility, but I don't think it's correlative to interest level.

[Grimbarian]

Excellent post as always arcticdog.

I think OUYA is still a fine place to do this. There are plenty of first time/small developers on the platform. But the consumers ultimately choose who gets the most attention. Not everyone gets a trophy. And a first time/small dev can't cut to the front of the line to gain attention or financial success. The ones that do don't act like first time/small in their goals, marketing or delivery.

I do hope I didn't come across as some whining self entitled kid who believes they should be successful just because they did something. That wasn't my intention.

As I said, I (mistakenly - I'll openly say it was my fault) assumed that the community here would be interested in getting involved collaboratively with the developers in an open way they don't get to do with games developed for other/larger platforms. I can accept that his approach has been received as being "small time".

It means they're uninterested in providing free QA to the developer (with some developers even having the audacity to charge for).

Lol - yeah - I'm not a fan of charging for the 'privilege' of "Early Access" either - and as I've already mentioned, I'm happy to say I got my approach wrong with the game development.

Of those 75,000 plays, how much feedback did you get? Does that equate to downloads or say... 7,500 people playing it 10 times?

I got a fair bit of feedback from Twitter and through my email about the game - some good, some bad, as to be expected. I actually expected about 1% of those plays. I don't have the in depth stats on how many of those plays were unique - that's why I've always used the statistic of x number of plays. I'm just happy that people were playing it on that platform - something I hadn't had enough of on the OUYA.

What seems odd about what you're saying here is.. it seems like there is a desire to have it both ways.. This very niche "give the little guy a shot" platform where people look the other way about quality and certain things they've grown to expect about games, and on the other side, an unfiltered group of distribution to the general populace that gives you 75K downloads/plays. Ideally, that would be awesome, but I'm afraid the world just doesn't spin that way.

As I said before - that was my understanding (from the Kickstarter, and OUYA's own 'marketing') as to what the console would be giving access too. Again, I'm man enough to say that It's been my mistake to make that assumption.

But in the end it depends on what your goals are. If you want to reach the most people possible and don't want to target multiple platforms to do that, it's clearly not a great choice. Steam might be better there. But expect a lot of brutality if you're not doing something unique or graphically impressive. And as I said above, it could turn out that a majority of people are uninterested in being testers for your game, but are interested in enjoying the game when you have a polished release.

Indeed, my goals are the same as they always have been since getting interested in game development - to make fun games that are played and enjoyed by as many people as possible. And I agree that, because I do not want to target multiple platforms, the OUYA is not the best choice of delivery method for me. I'm not one to shy away from bad feedback - but just getting it is at least a start!

[Kaimega]

--Response--

You realize that not a great number of people go out of their way to sideload, correct? Why didn't you put it on discover and gauge responses from there? I mean, the Alpha/Beta Section was made for (almost) exactly that. We (OUYAForum) are the minority, and then on top of that, there is even a smaller minority that will go out of their way to sideload an apk to test it. If you did put it on discover, you probably would have received a better response. I know for one I never downloaded the apk, as it is too much of a hassle to go through the process. If it was on discover though, I would have given it a shot.

[Grimbarian]

You realize that not a great number of people go out of their way to sideload, correct? Why didn't you put it on discover and gauge responses from there? I mean, the Alpha/Beta Section was made for (almost) exactly that. We (OUYAForum) are the minority, and then on top of that, there is even a smaller minority that will go out of their way to sideload an apk to test it. If you did put it on discover, you probably would have received a better response. I know for one I never downloaded the apk, as it is too much of a hassle to go through the process. If it was on discover though, I would have given it a shot.

Yeah - I did mention this in my first post I think. It has been brought to my attention, and IF I can muster the enthusiasm (and fix two niggling issues) I would aim to have it in that section early August.

[Sitting Fox]

Be the change you wish to see.

Grab a buddy or two and tag-team post up the threads, ask questions, whatever. Make a game plan. Activity begets activity. Think Newton's first law of motion.

That's my advice.

Although a bonk in the head as a reminder, like this thread, doesn't really hurt.