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Wolverine-_-_-
10-10-2013, 11:51 PM
Let me start by saying that OUYA should absolutely have defined terms of service and should have had them in place long before the marketplace was launched. I'm just interested in discussing the possible ramifications of some of the new rules if OUYA Inc. decides to strictly enforce them.

" 7. Rights to Games and Apps
“Games and Apps” means software, text, graphics, images, music, audio, video, works of authorship of any kind, and information or other materials that are posted, generated, provided or otherwise made available through the Marketplace. The Games and Apps belong to us and our licensors – for example – OUYA developers create and make games available via the Marketplace. Any reviews or comments that you provide to us in the form of feedback about the Marketplace or the Games and Apps are called “Your Content”. Your Content (not surprisingly) is yours and nothing in these Terms restricts any rights that you have to use it now and forever.

8. Content Ownership, Responsibility and Removal
Subject to your ownership of Your Content, OUYA and its licensors exclusively own all right, title and interest in and to the Marketplace and Games and Apps, including all associated intellectual property rights. You acknowledge that the Marketplace and Games and Apps are protected by copyright, trademark, and other laws of the United States and foreign countries. You agree not to remove, alter or obscure any copyright, trademark, service mark or other proprietary rights notices incorporated in or accompanying the Marketplace or Games and Apps. .

Sometimes we may discover that one of the Games and Apps on the Marketplace violates our agreement with our developers or other legal agreements, laws, regulations or policies. You agree that under those circumstances we have the right to remotely remove those Games and Apps from your device at our sole discretion."

Remotely remove apps from "MY" OUYA? What? That is disgusting! I have "sideloaded" games from multiple markets that are also on "Discover" and sometimes the developer hasn't even bothered to change version numbers. What is in the code that makes this possible, because it makes me very uneasy. They are overstepping their reach with this, I'm not sure if it's even legal. Forced updates that kept me from playing were part of what made me switch to StockPlus, now this?

"11. Don’t Do Bad Things
Use, display, mirror or frame the Marketplace, or any individual element within the Marketplace, OUYA’s name, any OUYA trademark, logo or other proprietary information, or the layout and design of any page or form contained on a page, without our express written consent, except as is clearly permitted by the functionality of the services.

Access, tamper with, or use non-public areas of the Marketplace, OUYA’s API’s, or the technical delivery systems of OUYA’s providers;
Attempt to probe, scan, or test the vulnerability of any OUYA system or network or breach any security or authentication measures;
Avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, impair, descramble or otherwise circumvent any technological measure implemented by OUYA or any of OUYA’s providers or any other third party (including another user) to protect the Marketplace or Games and Apps;

Use the Marketplace or Games and Apps for any commercial purpose or for the benefit of any third party or in any manner not permitted by these Terms;"

So what does this mean for Ouyalytics.com, ouyafans.com, and any other similar sites? At a minimum they are using "the technical delivery system" as well as content and images. Do these sites have permission? If not, the danger for them is that OUYA will turn a blind eye to them until they put up their own large site, and only then send a cease and desist order.

"Attempt to decipher, decompile, disassemble or reverse engineer any of the software used to provide the Marketplace or Games and Apps;"

This is standard for any OS, but most Android device manufactures turn a blind eye to the customized Roms available on sites like this one and XDA. Will OUYA really block access from Cyanogen Mod and StockPlus? Google sued CM, but it was resolved when they removed G-apps and made users obtain it elsewhere. Now CM is going to have official commercial Installers and Roms. Projects to port the OUYA framework are underway, what will be done about those installs?

"4. No kids!"

Oh, come on. They'd better put that on the box.

I just don't see how they can continue to call themselves open. And would they stop telling people they have 25,000 developers, how can that be when they have three digit numbers for available apps and games.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

LightyKD
10-11-2013, 12:28 AM
I don't like the whole "we can delete things off your device at will" B.S. Hopefully a mod will be released to block this.

timmytot666
10-11-2013, 12:36 AM
Use smart launcher never get a forced update again.

Sent from my LGL55C using Tapatalk 2

Negative Zero
10-11-2013, 12:39 AM
After reading through all that - slowly - I have a few thoughts.
If "Marketplace" means Discover, then most of this is just about protecting the store. You are right about customized roms though; we've suddenly got a lot of gray area around here.

As a chronic sideloader, I'm most concerned with this:

“Games and Apps” means software, text, graphics, images, music, audio, video, works of authorship of any kind, and information or other materials that are posted, generated, provided or otherwise made available through the Marketplace.

If I sideload a game and it later appears in Discover, what does that mean? And what can/will they do about it?

Maybe "open" isn't the right word anymore. "Relatively open" might be better; after all, it's still way more tinker-friendly than anything the big three have.

RiotingSpectre
10-11-2013, 12:45 AM
8. Content Ownership, Responsibility and Removal
Subject to your ownership of Your Content, OUYA and its licensors exclusively own all right, title and interest in and to the Marketplace and Games and Apps, including all associated intellectual property rights. You acknowledge that the Marketplace and Games and Apps are protected by copyright, trademark, and other laws of the United States and foreign countries. You agree not to remove, alter or obscure any copyright, trademark, service mark or other proprietary rights notices incorporated in or accompanying the Marketplace or Games and Apps. .

Sometimes we may discover that one of the Games and Apps on the Marketplace violates our agreement with our developers or other legal agreements, laws, regulations or policies. You agree that under those circumstances we have the right to remotely remove those Games and Apps from your device at our sole discretion."

Remotely remove apps from "MY" OUYA? What? That is disgusting! I have "sideloaded" games from multiple markets that are also on "Discover" and sometimes the developer hasn't even bothered to change version numbers. What is in the code that makes this possible, because it makes me very uneasy. They are overstepping their reach with this, I'm not sure if it's even legal. Forced updates that kept me from playing were part of what made me switch to StockPlus, now this?

I don't disagree with anything in the Terms Of Service, but I'll give my opinion of the one in bold. We all know that OUYA's whole "Open" thing was something they've fell back on after putting it in their mouths so many times. This doesn't surprise me one bit that they included something like this in the Terms Of Service because if you think about it, it allows for some black-market like behavior. Downloading a game that breaks their rules and using some method to acquire the APK and then spreading it around wouldn't exactly look good in my opinion. I could go into many things about why both sides would react the way they are, but as an example you need to put yourselves in their shoes on this.

arcticdog
10-11-2013, 01:42 AM
Let me start by saying that OUYA should absolutely have defined terms of service and should have had them in place long before the marketplace was launched. I'm just interested in discussing the possible ramifications of some of the new rules if OUYA Inc. decides to strictly enforce them.

" 7. Rights to Games and Apps
“Games and Apps” means software, text, graphics, images, music, audio, video, works of authorship of any kind, and information or other materials that are posted, generated, provided or otherwise made available through the Marketplace. The Games and Apps belong to us and our licensors – for example – OUYA developers create and make games available via the Marketplace. Any reviews or comments that you provide to us in the form of feedback about the Marketplace or the Games and Apps are called “Your Content”. Your Content (not surprisingly) is yours and nothing in these Terms restricts any rights that you have to use it now and forever.


You can probably interpret this as them trying to prevent another "Rose and Time" kind of situation where a game bought legitimately in the store is no longer available to those who bought it. It's a consumer protection thing.



8. Content Ownership, Responsibility and Removal
Subject to your ownership of Your Content, OUYA and its licensors exclusively own all right, title and interest in and to the Marketplace and Games and Apps, including all associated intellectual property rights. You acknowledge that the Marketplace and Games and Apps are protected by copyright, trademark, and other laws of the United States and foreign countries. You agree not to remove, alter or obscure any copyright, trademark, service mark or other proprietary rights notices incorporated in or accompanying the Marketplace or Games and Apps. .

Sometimes we may discover that one of the Games and Apps on the Marketplace violates our agreement with our developers or other legal agreements, laws, regulations or policies. You agree that under those circumstances we have the right to remotely remove those Games and Apps from your device at our sole discretion."

Remotely remove apps from "MY" OUYA? What? That is disgusting! I have "sideloaded" games from multiple markets that are also on "Discover" and sometimes the developer hasn't even bothered to change version numbers. What is in the code that makes this possible, because it makes me very uneasy. They are overstepping their reach with this, I'm not sure if it's even legal. Forced updates that kept me from playing were part of what made me switch to StockPlus, now this?

There are liability concerns here. DMCA rules apply. By law, OUYA needs to make reasonable efforts to stop distribution of known copyright violations or they themselves can be named in a lawsuit. This is a CYA thing. I doubt they will or even want to do anything about what you've side loaded because that is out of scope of DMCA as it pertains to items bought in the marketplace that they may be liable for. The packages created for the OUYA store have metadata that allow them to be distinguished. Even then, this may be an unnecessarily extreme case of CYA, since Google doesn't remote wipe apps that have copyright violations.

However, Google does remotely wipe apps that are malware. OUYA could be talking about that here since that is also a violation of policy. In true OUYA fashion, they're vague and leave some interpretation in the mix.




"11. Don’t Do Bad Things
Use, display, mirror or frame the Marketplace, or any individual element within the Marketplace, OUYA’s name, any OUYA trademark, logo or other proprietary information, or the layout and design of any page or form contained on a page, without our express written consent, except as is clearly permitted by the functionality of the services.

Access, tamper with, or use non-public areas of the Marketplace, OUYA’s API’s, or the technical delivery systems of OUYA’s providers;
Attempt to probe, scan, or test the vulnerability of any OUYA system or network or breach any security or authentication measures;
Avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, impair, descramble or otherwise circumvent any technological measure implemented by OUYA or any of OUYA’s providers or any other third party (including another user) to protect the Marketplace or Games and Apps;

Use the Marketplace or Games and Apps for any commercial purpose or for the benefit of any third party or in any manner not permitted by these Terms;"

So what does this mean for Ouyalytics.com, ouyafans.com, and any other similar sites? At a minimum they are using "the technical delivery system" as well as content and images. Do these sites have permission? If not, the danger for them is that OUYA will turn a blind eye to them until they put up their own large site, and only then send a cease and desist order.

I don't think this is unreasonable.. I imagine distribution outside of the firmware workflow skews the metrics, and blurs the "official" place where games should be obtained, which leads to nasty initiatives like phishing and malware sites. If they start advertising and making money off of OUYA's brand without giving them a cut, that's unfair too. Personally.. I've never been a fan of those kinds of sites. They send a very wrong message. If you have a developer bean counter looking at OUYA store metrics to determine demand of their software, it's hard to determine conversion rate to understand if they're pricing the game fairly.

On a minor note, it should also be noted that the distribution of apk's outside of any sort of binding agreement like this is technically piracy. Just as much as distribution of Google Play merchandise outside of downloading it from Google Play itself. This agreement protects the consumer from any recourse a dev could bring against a customer if it can be proven that they downloaded/purchased the game through OUYA's store. But outside of their grasp, they can offer no such protection... (i.e. they can't say the consumer is protected because they downloaded it from OUYAlytics since they do not operate that site)

That aside, there's the obvious sound security reason to say.. "don't hack our services".. and those sites might be convenient collateral damage if they intend to enforce it for that reason.

I think before they do something like that, they'll provide public APIs to sites like OUYAlytics so that metrics get properly managed, and give consumers a means of protection as a partner to OUYA. But that depends on how ambitious their store goals are.



"Attempt to decipher, decompile, disassemble or reverse engineer any of the software used to provide the Marketplace or Games and Apps;"

This is standard for any OS, but most Android device manufactures turn a blind eye to the customized Roms available on sites like this one and XDA. Will OUYA really block access from Cyanogen Mod and StockPlus? Google sued CM, but it was resolved when they removed G-apps and made users obtain it elsewhere. Now CM is going to have official commercial Installers and Roms. Projects to port the OUYA framework are underway, what will be done about those installs?

This refers to the marketplace component specifically. If you try to hack OUYA's firmware to try to bypass anything related to the market, this rule is violated. Has nothing to do with custom firmware. Worst case, CM will have to treat OUYA's store the same way as G-apps.



"4. No kids!"

Oh, come on. They'd better put that on the box.

Can't make a legally binding agreement with them. So no place for them in a business relationship. And whether you're a consumer or a developer, if you're using their store to purchase or provide, it's a business relationship.



I just don't see how they can continue to call themselves open. And would they stop telling people they have 25,000 developers, how can that be when they have three digit numbers for available apps and games.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
The kickstarter was very clear about how "open" will take a back seat to their store. From my understanding, you don't use their marketplace anyway and use a custom firmware, right? So none of these market place specific and OUYA brand rules really pertain to your usage. Those that are embracing the limited "open" aspects are probably doing most of the same things you are. So.. that's probably how they can continue to say they're open.

I do agree about that 25K developer thing though. A more realistic (though also not entirely accurate) number would be how many of those accounts actually have developer transaction/payment accounts hooked up to them.

Wolverine-_-_-
10-11-2013, 05:03 AM
That aside, there's the obvious sound security reason to say.. "don't hack our services".. and those sites might be convenient collateral damage if they intend to enforce it for that reason.

I think before they do something like that, they'll provide public APIs to sites like OUYAlytics so that metrics get properly managed, and give consumers a means of protection as a partner to OUYA. But that depends on how ambitious their store goals are.
That's why it's so ridiculous they waited so long to release the TOS. The terms are very straight forward (except for the requisite hipster language, can they ever be serious?) and people wouldn't be in a position that the website they built and are maintaining could be shut down any time.


This refers to the marketplace component specifically. If you try to hack OUYA's firmware to try to bypass anything related to the market, this rule is violated. Has nothing to do with custom firmware. Worst case, CM will have to treat OUYA's store the same way as G-apps.
" Attempt to decipher, decompile, disassemble or reverse engineer any of the software used to provide the Marketplace or Games and Apps;"

I don't read it the same way you do. "Any of the software". The marketplace is dependent upon the OUYA framework, which makes any Rom and probably some Mods (certainly the process to create all of them) a violation



The kickstarter was very clear about how "open" will take a back seat to their store. From my understanding, you don't use their marketplace anyway and use a custom firmware, right? So none of these market place specific and OUYA brand rules really pertain to your usage. Those that are embracing the limited "open" aspects are probably doing most of the same things you are. So.. that's probably how they can continue to say they're open.

Your understanding is wrong. I run StockPlus which is just a tweaked out stock Rom, most power users with G-apps are running basically the same thing. This week I finally conquered the storage beast (yeah for me!) using a 1TB USB drive split between Fat32(for foldermount) and ext4(link2SD), I did waste several days trying to use Android Tuner for link to SD which didn't work in any acceptable consistent way.

I do use Discover and have quite a bit of credit left from a $25 card I purchased and the 'lite credit. With expanded storage I'm downloading a bunch of RPG and hopefully one or two will be enough fun to get me to finish. I played Saturday Morning RPG to the paywall but didn't really feel it would keep me hooked.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

Schizophretard
10-11-2013, 05:49 AM
" Attempt to decipher, decompile, disassemble or reverse engineer any of the software used to provide the Marketplace or Games and Apps;"

I don't read it the same way you do. "Any of the software". The marketplace is dependent upon the OUYA framework, which makes any Rom and probably some Mods (certainly the process to create all of them) a violation.

Since not accepting the terms results in logging you out and you can't use your OUYA until you accept the terms then I think that it is safe to assume that "Any of the software" is all of it. To use the OUYA you have to accept the terms.

LightyKD
10-11-2013, 08:37 AM
THIS

https://plus.google.com/u/0/101870372356034764386/posts/iKuQmQb2MaU

Might be the first test of the "We can delete your games" clause of the TOS. From my understanding of Android apps. Unless Clark has the ability to update files w/o the need for Discover, it looks like players will have to update their games via the OUYA menu and then will be forced to "update" the game again to lose those levels. Remember the OUYA currently does not allow you to play a game that needs updating. Therefore this clause has been here since day !




(\__ _/)___
(o' . 'o)\ __/
(")__(")//

Schizophretard
10-11-2013, 10:59 AM
Can't make a legally binding agreement with them. So no place for them in a business relationship. And whether you're a consumer or a developer, if you're using their store to purchase or provide, it's a business relationship.

But it says,"4. This Adventure Isn’t for Everyone
You may use the Marketplace only if you are 13 years or older and are not barred from using the Marketplace under applicable law."

Why would it say 13 years old instead of 18 and why couldn't a child be in a business relationship of just buying games for a video game console? When I was a child, I could buy games even before 13 years old. I never had anyone tell me that I couldn't participate in a business relationship of buying games. This isn't cigarettes. It's a video game console. It's a toy. What's the point of having parental controls for content and purchases if the parent has to agree that their child under 13 years old can't use Discover anyway? It seems like a parent should just be able to set up parental controls, let their kid download games, and then the parent can enter their pin number or they could just give them a gift card and let them buy what they want. What about the dev side of things? The developer of Astronaut Rescue is 8 years old. What happens there? Does his game get pulled or what? I don't see the point of this 13 years old adventure isn’t for everyone term of service.

Reaperman
10-12-2013, 05:21 PM
I haven't turned my console on for some time. What happens if I refuse to agree? Do I just lose the discover store, or access everything I've "purchased" up to this point?

I have no idea what 'their policies' (as in apps that violate them) are, but it's possible that some side-loaded apps I have break them, or that ouya apks removed from the store would then be removed from my machine. I suppose they might also go hunting around for side-loaded apps that are also available in the store to kill those.

timmytot666
10-12-2013, 05:25 PM
I think this is more just to cover their asses and not a threat to us. I.e. they actually said their lawyers told them to put it in. I figure they won't enforce other apps. Should be legit.

Sent from my LGL55C using Tapatalk 2

Wolverine-_-_-
10-13-2013, 01:50 AM
I haven't turned my console on for some time. What happens if I refuse to agree? Do I just lose the discover store, or access everything I've "purchased" up to this point?

I have no idea what 'their policies' (as in apps that violate them) are, but it's possible that some side-loaded apps I have break them, or that ouya apks removed from the store would then be removed from my machine. I suppose they might also go hunting around for side-loaded apps that are also available in the store to kill those.
If you don't update then you won't get the TOS agreement. Kill your internet connection on your router before powering up OUYA and then have it forget all of your Wi-Fi APs. Then install whatever mod blocks the new form of forced updates. I'm running StockPlus based on the previous update and can use Discover with no problems. Setting another launcher as default must block the update as well, because I never got it and didn't change the Rom to block it for at least 48 hours after it began pushing out.

THIS

https://plus.google.com/u/0/101870372356034764386/posts/iKuQmQb2MaU

Might be the first test of the "We can delete your games" clause of the TOS. From my understanding of Android apps. Unless Clark has the ability to update files w/o the need for Discover, it looks like players will have to update their games via the OUYA menu and then will be forced to "update" the game again to lose those levels. Remember the OUYA currently does not allow you to play a game that needs updating. Therefore this clause has been here since day !




(\__ _/)___
(o' . 'o)\ __/
I didn't know that about game updates, perhaps because I use Nova launcher, which makes the work around simple. Custom launchers don't require root, you can start it from Make and set it as default once it's started. I never launch games from Play because for some reason if I use the home button to return to NOVA and then try to launch OUYA, the last game always opens instead.

If the levels are disabled based on the date, we can change the system date.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

Sir_Dragoon
10-13-2013, 06:14 AM
Yeah, wish I knew about this before I let the Ouya update this evening. Declining the terms does log you out.

If I don't like their terms, I should be locked out of the Marketplace only, not the whole damn system...

heiselman
10-14-2013, 05:49 AM
But it says,"4. This Adventure Isn’t for Everyone
You may use the Marketplace only if you are 13 years or older and are not barred from using the Marketplace under applicable law."

Why would it say 13 years old instead of 18 and why couldn't a child be in a business relationship of just buying games for a video game console? When I was a child, I could buy games even before 13 years old. I never had anyone tell me that I couldn't participate in a business relationship of buying games. This isn't cigarettes. It's a video game console. It's a toy. What's the point of having parental controls for content and purchases if the parent has to agree that their child under 13 years old can't use Discover anyway? It seems like a parent should just be able to set up parental controls, let their kid download games, and then the parent can enter their pin number or they could just give them a gift card and let them buy what they want. What about the dev side of things? The developer of Astronaut Rescue is 8 years old. What happens there? Does his game get pulled or what? I don't see the point of this 13 years old adventure isn’t for everyone term of service.

Because minors under the age of 13 fall under the COPPA laws in the U.S. (http://www.slideshare.net/sweetsearch/coppa-and-over-13-age-restrictions) Basically, any child under the age of 13 isn't allowed to sign up for any sort of digital service without written parental consent being sent in to the website operator. Since that is a major pain-in-the-ass for website operators, most just choose to not allow minors under the age of 13. This includes Google (https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/1350409?hl=en), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/help/search/?q=age+limit), Twitter (https://twitter.com/tos) (Twitter's wording says that you can only use the service if you are legally allowed to enter into a binding contract, which 13 year olds are not in the U.S.) and just about every other site (even this site (http://ouyaforum.com/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_usage#faq_vb3_register)). Only sites intended for young children allow minors, but they require that the parent sign up for the account and then create child accounts which are specifically designed to not allow much interaction and do not collect user data for advertising purposes.

And before you say that you know tons of kids under of the age of 13 that use these services, know that they all had to lie about their age when signing up. Ask any of them and I'd guarantee it unless they are outside of the U.S.

Negative Zero
10-14-2013, 02:06 PM
I think this is more just to cover their asses and not a threat to us. I.e. they actually said their lawyers told them to put it in. I figure they won't enforce other apps. Should be legit.

Agreed. Simple corporate CYA legalese that is required for anything digital these days. Click "OK" and move on.

Tycho-y
10-15-2013, 04:22 PM
Click "OK" and move on.

Click "Dont Accept" and Fouya them. Put Debian or a custom image on the box.

Move on.

Nobody In Particular
10-16-2013, 06:27 AM
Thought I should point out: the new TOS also includes a mandatory arbitration clause.

Although increasingly common since they became legally enforceable a few years back due to a loophole in federal law, mandatory arbitration clauses should not be construed as standard boilerplate. Whatever the pros and cons of arbitration, the true intent of a mandatory arbitration clause in this context is to prevent consumers from participating in a class-action lawsuit against a corporation.

This is particularly disturbing in the case of Ouya because they have shown a willingness both to modify users' consoles without their consent (i.e. forced automatic updates) and to add new restrictions after the fact to users' accounts (i.e. new TOS).

arcticdog
10-16-2013, 05:58 PM
By the way.. I'm not sure if anyone realized this or not, but the terms of service document they pushed down has always been around. Until now, it had sort of been hidden away in the fine print of their website at ouya.tv (look at Terms of service at the bottom of the page). Pushing it to the console itself and making it visible to everyone is merely a means of building a stronger legal position should they get challenged. But they have always been there and were binding the minute you visited their site or service whether you knew they were there or not. They're just easier to enforce when you can say in court that you specifically pushed them in front of everyone.

In other news, all content publishers have a terms of service like this. Including Google Play..
http://play.google.com/intl/en_us/about/play-terms.html

First paragraph says these terms include
this: http://play.google.com/intl/en_us/about/play-terms.html
and this: http://play.google.com/about/android-developer-policies.html

Do a search on those document for the various restrictions everyone is complaining about. You may be surprised at how common it is, and how you're already responsible for those terms in other app stores.


Here's a sample:


Google may remove from your Device or cease providing you with access to certain Products that you have purchased.


and another:


This license is for the sole purpose of enabling you to use and enjoy the benefit of the Services as provided by Google, in the manner permitted by these terms. You may not copy, modify, distribute, sell, or lease any part of our Services or included software, nor may you reverse engineer or attempt to extract the source code of that software, unless laws prohibit those restrictions or you have our written permission.

Nobody In Particular
10-17-2013, 08:50 AM
@arcticdog: I'm sorry, but I believe a number of your statements are factually inaccurate.


the terms of service document they pushed down has always been around. Until now, it had sort of been hidden away in the fine print of their website at ouya.tv (look at Terms of service at the bottom of the page)

The Terms of Service to which you are referring govern use of the Ouya website. That TOS is different than the Discover Marketplace Terms of Use (the topic of discussion). Granted, everyone has been using the abbreviation TOS versus TOU ...

The Marketplace TOS/TOU is now available on the Ouya website, but has not been available in the past (certainly not prior to September).


they ... were binding the minute you visited their site or service whether you knew they were there or not.

This is inaccurate, arguably even for the website TOS. The legal theory that simply visiting a website implies consent to whatever the publisher lists in the TOS has yet to be seriously tested in court. (But to anyone who would try, good luck with that ...)


In other news, all content publishers have a terms of service like this. Including Google Play

This is also inaccurate. All service providers (should) have a TOS in place, but the terms need not be as onerous as those set by Ouya. In particular, none of the terms you linked to relating to Google Play include a mandatory arbitration clause.

mmartino
10-17-2013, 07:03 PM
This is also inaccurate. All service providers (should) have a TOS in place, but the terms need not be as onerous as those set by Ouya. In particular, none of the terms you linked to relating to Google Play include a mandatory arbitration clause.


I would agree that mandatory arbitration is a slimy tactic companies are using now. However while I am not familiar with the Play store TOS, Both Sony and Microsoft added a mandatory binding arbitration clause with class action waiver in all of there TOS back in 2011. So while I think its a nasty practice, they could just be following what others have done before them.

Here are some links to the TOS for them:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-live/microsoft-services-agreement

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/legal/livetou

When you subscribe to the Sony Network (the PlayStation network
and Sony's music and video network; similar to Netflix I guess),
you are bound to arbitration.

The terms have a warning at the beginning:

http://www.sonyentertainmentnetwork.com/terms-of-service/

NOTE: THIS AGREEMENT CONTAINS A BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION
AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER PROVISION IN SECTION 17 THAT AFFECTS
YOUR RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT WITH RESPECT TO ANY "DISPUTE"
(AS DEFINED BELOW) BETWEEN YOU AND SNEI, SONY COMPUTER
ENTERTAINMENT INC., SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT AMERICA LLC,
THEIR AFFILIATES, PARENTS OR SUBSIDIARIES (COLLECTIVELY, "SONY
ENTITIES"). YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO OPT OUT OF THE BINDING
ARBITRATION AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER PROVISIONS AS DESCRIBED IN
SECTION 17.

Section 17: Blah blah blah lol

Electronic arts has the same thing. And yes a few companies were protected by this and had cases thrown out of court in 2010 so it caught on and by mid 2011 most larger companies had already instituted this.

Currently there are several political groups that are trying to change this.

Nobody In Particular
10-19-2013, 07:31 AM
I would agree that mandatory arbitration is a slimy tactic companies are using now. However while I am not familiar with the Play store TOS, Both Sony and Microsoft added a mandatory binding arbitration clause with class action waiver in all of there TOS back in 2011.

Yes, at this point I'm intimately familiar with the Sony PSN TOS. It was a big deal when they added the mandatory arbitration clause.


Currently there are several political groups that are trying to change this.

To put it mildly ...


So while I think its a nasty practice, they could just be following what others have done before them ... by mid 2011 most larger companies had already instituted this.

Well, that's the thing. Selection of terms involves choice. The choices a company makes reflect its mission and values. There is always a tension between competing interests, but not every company makes the same choices.

So, for instance, Sony, Microsoft, and Valve all include a binding arbitration clause and class action waiver in their terms of service. Apple and Google do not.

I had higher hopes for Ouya.

Wolverine-_-_-
12-15-2013, 01:48 AM
Since the only developer creating custom ROMS for OUYA is moving on to other things. It is inevitable that I will eventually be forced to go back to stock for one reason or another. A pretty sorry state of affairs for everyone who bought an OUYA because it was open and hackable.

Has anyone figured out a work around to update the OUYA without consenting to the TOS?

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Tycho-y
12-15-2013, 03:33 AM
Since the only developer creating custom ROMS for OUYA is moving on to other things.

Bummer but foreseeable with the current company policies and the lack of a beeing able to bring the box into recovery mode or flashing the primary firmware partition.



It is inevitable that I will eventually be forced to go back to stock for one reason or another. A pretty sorry state of affairs for everyone who bought an OUYA because it was open and hackable.

Supposed to be "hackable". A rather obnoxious statement when you cant even flash the primary firmware partition like you can with almost all android devices (whose producers dont claim the device to be "hackable").



Has anyone figured out a work around to update the OUYA without consenting to the TOS?


Yes. You need to install the xposed android framework for ouya along with the "xposed mod collection for ouya" to disable the auto update, amongst other things. If you dont have a firmware version from before the infamous "forced TOS upgrade" you also need to replace the launcher with a third party one via "adb". Or factory reset the ouya first. Installing the xposed framework will also give you access to the google play store which is quite handy.

Xposed Mod for Ouya thread on XDA Dev Forum (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2359390)

The only (Ouya Store) game not working with the xposed framework so far is Final-Fantasy III. Unluckily.

Wolverine-_-_-
12-15-2013, 03:59 AM
Alternativley you can install the stock-plus firmware on the recovery partition. You can find all information on the xda developer forums.

StockPlus is the Rom I'm referring to. The developer has announced that he will not be making anymore updates. I already have root, CWM and everything else you refer to.

You're not really answering my question about the TOS check in the newest updates. I'm not even sure how many there have been in the past few months. I'm being hopeful that there is a workaround, but it's doubtful considering the development community has lost what little interest it had.

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flamepanther
12-15-2013, 04:21 AM
and the lack of a beeing able to bring the box into recovery modeYou can boot into recovery mode just fine, but you need a USB keyboard to do it.

Wolverine-_-_-
12-15-2013, 07:10 AM
You can boot into recovery mode just fine, but you need a USB keyboard to do it.
If you do a search for the threads from several months ago about recovery you will see this type of recovery is not low enough in the boot cycle.

I'm not sure when or why this thread was moved in to Suggestions and Ideas sub-forum, but I'll take it as a positive the TOS might be removed as a requirement for those who bought OUYAs, created accounts and made purchases before it existed. What upsets me is that I have $27 in credit that if I return to stock will only be accessible by agreeing to a TOS that was not required at the time I made my purchases.

Tycho-y
12-15-2013, 07:44 AM
StockPlus is the Rom I'm referring to. The developer has announced that he will not be making anymore updates. I already have root, CWM and everything else you refer to.

Yeah, i confused xposed framework with clockwork mod. Check my corrected posting above.



You're not really answering my question about the TOS check in the newest updates. I'm not even sure how many there have been in the past few months.

Yes, see corrected posting above. You can disable auto-update with the xposed framework for ouya and the "ouya module collection". I have this working with a "pre forced-TOS" stock firmware and a "forced TOS" stock firmware.


You can boot into recovery mode just fine, but you need a USB keyboard to do it.

Kinda didnt seem to work with my usb keyboard and as the xposed framework works sufficiently (- final fantasy III) i stopped trying. Its also annoying to have have an USB keyboard attached and then manually boot from recovery flash.

Wolverine-_-_-
12-15-2013, 03:26 PM
Yes, see corrected posting above. You can disable auto-update with the xposed framework for ouya and the "ouya module collection". I have this working with a "pre forced-TOS" stock firmware and a "forced TOS" stock firmware.

I think you are misunderstanding my question. I don't want to know how to disable automatic updates. I want to install the Stock Rom and not consent to this BS Terms of Service. Which would require modifying the Rom before flashing it, or OUYA seeing the light and not forcing it upon those of us who bought OUYA when they didn't have it.

timmytot666
12-15-2013, 03:31 PM
Installing a custom launcher such as Smart Launcher Pro or Go Launcher EX will allow you to not update until you specifically open your ouya launcher. You can download any games from totalouya or ouyalytics and download the apk. I didn't agree to the TOS until after they put me in the USB beta.

Tycho-y
12-16-2013, 06:27 AM
I think you are misunderstanding my question. I don't want to know how to disable automatic updates. I want to install the Stock Rom and not consent to this BS Terms of Service.

You can

- use a ouya stock, pre forced TOS rom with xposed framework and ouya launcher OR
- update to the latest stock rom and install an alternate launcher like suggested by timmytot666

I am running both solutions on my 2 ouya boxes but my "forced TOS" ROM version also has the xposed framework installed.

In the first case you can access the Ouya market if you want, in the latter case i dont see how you could do it. But as i didnt accept the TOS i am not using the ouya market anymore anyway.
I mean, you dont accept market TOS, you dont use the market, right?

timmytot666
12-16-2013, 12:53 PM
I don't use the Ouya market unless I have to. I use www.ouyalytics.com or www.totalouya.com to get my Ouya APKs and if you've assigned a credit card you can even pay and upgrade your games all without the ouya launcher.

Wolverine-_-_-
12-17-2013, 04:17 AM
I mean, you dont accept market TOS, you dont use the market, right?

Unfortunately I bought a $25 card, because I didn't trust there servers with my credit card info. That plus my "leet" credit totals $27 and change sitting in my account. If I was a lawyer I would contest the TOS being required after I already gave them my money.

The idea of bypassing the OUYA launcher permanently is appealing. I'll see what the next few official updates offer for system stability and storage. I am also cautious of the PLAY store mod getting blocked.

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mmartino
12-17-2013, 01:38 PM
Unfortunately I bought a $25 card, because I didn't trust there servers with my credit card info. That plus my "leet" credit totals $27 and change sitting in my account. If I was a lawyer I would contest the TOS being required after I already gave them my money.

The idea of bypassing the OUYA launcher permanently is appealing. I'll see what the next few official updates offer for system stability and storage. I am also cautious of the PLAY store mod getting blocked.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

I am pretty sure if you write to them and tell them you do not agree to the TOS but want your money back they will refund you. My brother got a refund when the policy first came out. From what they told him as long as you did not agree or purchase anything since then, they will refund your money and close your account for you.

Tycho-y
12-27-2013, 03:33 AM
Just for the record: The market access has been blocked shortly after its been posted here that it did still works even if you didnt accepted the TOS.