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fireballs
08-13-2014, 12:06 PM
Guess it depends on your version of deep, I would think that deep FOR THEM would include the wheel and whatever else. While today these would not be deep thought.
But the wheel has to go in greatest inventions too because without it, there's no cars and everything else.
Oh without a doubt the wheel is up there, probably number 3. To me what makes the wheel less important is the steps in modern human adaptation/evolution.

At one point it was either gather fruits berries and foliage all day to get enough fuel for life or eat raw meat. It takes so much fruits n berries to live that if that's what you choose then that's all you did was harvest. If you choose raw meat then it took many hours to eat enough meat to provide enough fuel for life and basically all you did was hunt and chew.

With fire they were able to eat meat in a short period of time which enabled them to do things that weren't life dependent. This freed them up for language. Without fire modern evolution of man would have been at a stand still.

With fire came language. With language came not only deeper thoughts but comparing thoughts and findings with each other. The wheel came after language and the wheel might even have been a calaboration.

Schizophretard
08-13-2014, 09:05 PM
Language and fire are the 2 biggest invention for man ever and its not even close.

I believe your answer is found in there. You are viewing spoken language as a human invention when it is only the specific languages themselves that are invented and they are invented socially in an evolutionary process. The power of speech itself is biologically a part of us just as the parts of our brain to learn to walk are. You couldn't ever time travel back to a time where adult homo sapiens had a vocabulary similar to a baby with grunts, moans, growls, cries, etc. and they have more trouble expressing themselves than we do today because they are waiting for someone to invent spoken language in a similar way that they were waiting for someone to invent a method to produce fire. All you would find is exactly what you would if you visited a tribe out in a rain forest. You would just find people with a language you don't know that has words for everything they know about and they would quickly coin terms to express what they think of you and your time machine. They would come to the wrong conclusions about you but their thoughts and conversations about you would be very deep.

Starfighter
08-13-2014, 09:58 PM
I read a few interesting pieces regarding language where the hypothesis was that our language grew out of the need to groom more and more people. Like when animals tend to each other to build bonds, that was pretty hard for humans to do since our social groups were much much larger. And so, language made it possible to bond with many at the same time. I liked that idea. :)

fireballs
08-14-2014, 10:43 AM
I believe your answer is found in there. You are viewing spoken language as a human invention when it is only the specific languages themselves that are invented and they are invented socially in an evolutionary process. The power of speech itself is biologically a part of us just as the parts of our brain to learn to walk are. You couldn't ever time travel back to a time where adult homo sapiens had a vocabulary similar to a baby with grunts, moans, growls, cries, etc. and they have more trouble expressing themselves than we do today because they are waiting for someone to invent spoken language in a similar way that they were waiting for someone to invent a method to produce fire. All you would find is exactly what you would if you visited a tribe out in a rain forest. You would just find people with a language you don't know that has words for everything they know about and they would quickly coin terms to express what they think of you and your time machine. They would come to the wrong conclusions about you but their thoughts and conversations about you would be very deep.

I might be misunderstanding but it seems as if you are saying people have always had language, is this correct?

If so is thus based on scientific study or religious beliefs?

Personally I think we evolved and since we evolved that would mean language evolved too. I do believe at one point we had a more animalistic way of communication and then it changed to more of a grunt and then there were different types of grunts for different basic necessities.

Schizophretard
08-14-2014, 12:22 PM
I might be misunderstanding but it seems as if you are saying people have always had language, is this correct?

Yes. Homo sapiens have always had the power of speech.


If so is thus based on scientific study or religious beliefs?

I'm speaking in a scientific sense. Concerning religious beliefs, we aren't suppose to discuss them but to add clarity I don't possess the religious beliefs you are thinking of.


Personally I think we evolved and since we evolved that would mean language evolved too. I do believe at one point we had a more animalistic way of communication and then it changed to more of a grunt and then there were different types of grunts for different basic necessities.

I think we evolved too but once the transition went from apelike ancestor to fully human homo sapiens the power of speech was already evolved. It wouldn't be a homo sapien yet if it didn't have the power of speech.

Languages did evolve and they continue to evolve but it happens as quickly as making up a new term and it becoming a socially accepted word. For an example, OUYA is a new word but it doesn't take thousands of years for the definition of it to be comprehensible. The word just has to be coined and shared. It would be the same thing with humans from a 100,000 years ago. They weren't coining terms for spaceships and things like that but it would be simple for them to point at things they know and rapidly share the words with their little tribes. One member could point at a tree, say their version of the word tree, they would all be in agreement, and then they would start using that word to talk about trees. When something new is introduced then just like we mix words and adjust them for new things they would do the same. To use the discovery of fire as an example, as soon as a person first presented the method of how to make it they would maybe call it something that means "wood lightning spirit" or something like that to use things they already know to describe the new thing. But they wouldn't be waiting around for ages to come up with a way to talk about fire. Once the power of speech is there it evolves as quickly as their knowledge does.

Concerning grunts, there is no way of knowing what sounds, words, accents, etc. they had but I doubt it was anything like how in caveman movies every word is a growl with everyone's name being Ugh. If we were there to witness it then it may seem as simple as that to us but that is just because we wouldn't know their language and it would all sound the same to us just as it does with different languages now. I could try to have a conversation with a guy in Africa, to me I just hear,"Click! Oooh! Pop! Click! Click!", I think he sounds like an idiot cricket, to him he is talking about quantum mechanics, and I sound like an idiot making bird noises. Our sounds still sound animalistic. When we get mad and yell we have growling/grunting sounds in the tone and when we are happy and laughing we sound like chimps,"Oh! Ah! Ah! Ahh!" We just put meaning to the little details of the sounds and are so used to our own languages that we don't notice that we still sound like animals.

fireballs
08-14-2014, 12:30 PM
Yes. Homo sapiens have always had the power of speech.



I'm speaking in a scientific sense. Concerning religious beliefs, we aren't suppose to discuss them but to add clarity I don't possess the religious beliefs you are thinking of.



I think we evolved too but once the transition went from apelike ancestor to fully human homo sapiens the power of speech was already evolved. It wouldn't be a homo sapien yet if it didn't have the power of speech.

Languages did evolve and they continue to evolve but it happens as quickly as making up a new term and it becoming a socially accepted word. For an example, OUYA is a new word but it doesn't take thousands of years for the definition of it to be comprehensible. The word just has to be coined and shared. It would be the same thing with humans from a 100,000 years ago. They weren't coining terms for spaceships and things like that but it would be simple for them to point at things they know and rapidly share the words with their little tribes. One member could point at a tree, say their version of the word tree, they would all be in agreement, and then they would start using that word to talk about trees. When something new is introduced then just like we mix words and adjust them for new things they would do the same. To use the discovery of fire as an example, as soon as a person first presented the method of how to make it they would maybe call it something that means "wood lightning spirit" or something like that to use things they already know to describe the new thing. But they wouldn't be waiting around for ages to come up with a way to talk about fire. Once the power of speech is there it evolves as quickly as their knowledge does.

Concerning grunts, there is no way of knowing what sounds, words, accents, etc. they had but I doubt it was anything like how in caveman movies every word is a growl with everyone's name being Ugh. If we were there to witness it then it may seem as simple as that to us but that is just because we wouldn't know their language and it would all sound the same to us just as it does with different languages now. I could try to have a conversation with a guy in Africa, to me I just hear,"Click! Oooh! Pop! Click! Click!", I think he sounds like an idiot cricket, to him he is talking about quantum mechanics, and I sound like an idiot making bird noises. Our sounds still sound animalistic. When we get mad and yell we have growling/grunting sounds in the tone and when we are happy and laughing we sound like chimps,"Oh! Ah! Ah! Ahh!" We just put meaning to the little details of the sounds and are so used to our own languages that we don't notice that we still sound like animals.
I have to disagree.

Either what we evolved from had the ability to speak or the first mutation that made us would have given it speech instantly according to your scenario.

We have the ability to do a bunch of things that our body and mind aren't taking advantage of. Just because you have the ability to do something doesn't diminish it when you do do it.

Also I don't think it went from no language to all people knowing words over night.

flamepanther
08-14-2014, 12:36 PM
Even animals posess highly evolved capacity for language skills, if perhaps not usually as tuned for intricate abstract thought as ours. I recall recently reading about studies suggesting that cats and dogs are capable of actually comprehending human speech at about the level of a small human toddler. So when your pets seem to be listening to you and maybe understanding what you say, you may not just be imagining it.

Schizophretard
08-14-2014, 11:21 PM
I have to disagree.

Either what we evolved from had the ability to speak or the first mutation that made us would have given it speech instantly according to your scenario.

We have the ability to do a bunch of things that our body and mind aren't taking advantage of. Just because you have the ability to do something doesn't diminish it when you do do it.

Also I don't think it went from no language to all people knowing words over night.

I kind of do believe it went from no language to all people knowing words over night but that would be an extreme exaggeration of it. It is more like in the middle of the gradualism you seem to be describing and that. It would be similar to written language. Writing didn't come about over millions of years but it didn't happen literally over night either. It is more like "over night" on a geological time scale and on that same scale that night was just "last night". It was hundreds of thousands of years of spoken language, written language developing relatively quickly, and then just a little bit later a man stood on the moon. I think it would be a similar jump like that with spoken language. It would be body language for hundreds of thousands of years and then a jump up to spoken language. I believe that is how evolution works. Things gradually happen over eons with barely any changes and then big jumps that make rapid changes happen. Instead of gradualism it would be punctuated equilibrium.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwDpz_18m1Y